Hitler Was Actually Pretty Bad: The Woke Right w/Joe Schenke!

 Welcome to another episode of the Carpefeide Podcast where if the shoe fits you wear it and if the truth hurts you bear it. I am Justin Gruber and I am Jesse Gruber and today we hope you will seize the faith. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 220 of the Carpefeide Podcast. How you feeling Jess? I'm feeling good man, I'm feeling good, I'm feeling better than I did five minutes ago. Well, that's an improvement. We are going to do a, I don't know what's going to happen tonight, we're going to see what's going to happen tonight. We're going to attempt to discuss the hotbed topic of the post-work in census. We're going to talk about trying to avoid getting involved in various conspiracies, asking questions, getting answers and then actually letting those answers inform what we do. Instead of continually just asking questions, never caring what the answers are. It's always the people that ask the most questions that draw implications but never actually land on anything. It's so annoying. It's problematic. Problematic. There could be a lot of discussion tonight, I want to say right off the top, this is not like a, we hate anyone in particular or we're anti or we're not actually yourself. We're not trying to, I'm all I'm saying is, we're not trying to establish and us versus them. We're just trying to have a discussion that actually gets us somewhere so we can actually have a framework, you know, like a biblical framework, like a good biblical hermeneutic to handle these kinds of thoughts and conversations. I like the Bible. I love the Bible, amen. I'm going to, what are we going to do? I'm going to start with a brief overview of the post-workin census because for some of you, you know, you live life. Like you have kids and you work a job and you, you don't care about the post-workin. You don't have an ex account and you're not on ex. And you listen to Carpefea Day instead of these other prockets. Yeah, it's so cool. But there's a growing movement that is very anti-post-workin census. And like I'm on board with being anti-post-workin census and then then I'm not on board with everything they say and then so I guess I'm kicked out. That's a problem. So it's like, that's only a problem if you wanted to be in. We have a special guest. But first I'm going to start with this brief overview of the post-workin census. And then I'm going to let Jesse talk about like maybe some real world interactions and connection points. And then we're going to introduce our guest. And this is a special podcast, I think for us, at least for me anyway. Maybe I'm maybe I'm two rose color glasses, but it's special for me. So if it's special for nobody else that's here tonight, that's fine. I don't care. Dude, if you started wearing rose color glasses, I think that would just complete your look. No, that would be so, so gay. I'm not doing that. All right. Who did that John? John Lennox? Who? John Lennox? Not John Lennox. Isn't there someone, someone who's going to fight a Lancer? No, no, no, no, no, not that John Lennox. Lenin, John Lennox. John Lennox. So, this is a real world of gold glasses, but they weren't, I don't think they were rose colored. I believe you're thinking of Elton John. Wait, wasn't he from New Jersey? I know some England Elton John from England. Lord help us. Lord. That's right, Prince was from New Jersey. He also wore rose colored glasses. All right, this is from an article. I hope they were purple. This is an article from 2024 in the American reformer. And it's by Ben Crenshaw. And he outlines the post-workin census. And it's a, this is his conclusion paragraph is one that many people point back to to understand a definition of the post-workin census. So I'm going to read this conclusion paragraph and I'll cut it off wherever I want to. He uses a lot of words. It's a very long article. And I'm sure I'll send the link to Jesse and he can post it. And then you can read this long article. It will take you much time. Here's what Ben Crenshaw says. The post-workin census simply is the liberal international order. So that's just another name for the post-workin census. And some people will use that. The liberal international order in its ideology. Language, organization, and management. It represents a rejection of true national sovereignty, multi-pollarity, and great power politics under the law of nations. It disparages and banishes the political art and replaces it with corporate management. Citizens of specific nations and their natural affections for their unique ways of life are swapped out and forced to become interchangeable global units in a worldwide consumerist economy. The development and growth of intelligence and security agencies and organizations aid the liberal overseers in managing friend info, alike, through information and technology control, clandestine espionage and covert disruptions and deadly strikes. I'm just going to read the next sentence. Unquestioned loyalty to the state of Israel, the fear of anti-Semitism, and a wildly improbable Nazi resurgence and the redirection of nationalist fervor onto a Zionist state rather than a Christian one. Butchers' the liberal international orders claim to be the defenders of humanity. Finally, the liberal world order relentlessly promotes its moral legitimacy through an endless diatribe of faceless human dignity and sweeping human rights. By presenting itself as an unblemished force for good, arrayed against acts of darkness and as the champion and defender of democracy around the world. That is a lot of words, but if you've ever talked to somebody about the post-workin census, I think you'll find it requires a lot of words to talk about the post-workin census. That is a brief overview. Does this kind of ring true for you, Jesse, and some of your interactions? Yeah, so the way that I gauge whether something is important enough to think about, just in general, because our time is so limited, is whether or not people around me in real life are talking about it, and if people around me in real life are talking about it that I care about, it's worth me then entering into the arena of actually trying to think about it. For me, this whole conversation, this whole concern about the Jews and co-zing up to Hitler a little bit, that was just all on the internet, and there's always been that weird stuff on the internet. The internet's a weird place. It's a weird place, man. People close to me, people in my circles, people in my local area, several of them start coming up and talking to me about these things. That's what I'm like, okay, this is actually kind of problematic. We have gone from the realm of it's over there to now it's getting here. I wanted to start thinking about these things, but my problem with history and trying to understand history, Justin, is I have no idea what's real and what's not anymore. Do you have a hard time with that? I don't really trust anybody. I'm not a really trusting person, so I don't really know what book to read because I don't trust any of these people, they're all strangers. It's been a difficult endeavor to think about, but we've handled some of the thoughts on previous episodes before. No, because I've listened to 7,000 hours of Dan Carlin's hardcore history, my friend. I know, dude, I was actually on his website today trying to figure out which ones were about World War II, and I was like this close from paying $100 to get every episode of all of them forever. There's so much this close to content on anyway. How many hours? Yeah, so instead what I did was I reached out to our guests, and I'm like, oh, I feel like he's read a couple books and he likes history and he enjoys talking about this thing and he thinks really well, and I would much rather talk to him than do any of this other stuff. So I reached out to our guest, Joe, Shanky, up there in New York, not the bad part of New York. He's not the buzz-leaf part. He's in the pretty part of New York. And he sent me over some documents, so by way of introduction, both to him and to our topic, I do kind of want to just read this closing paragraph of this one article. It says to suggest that Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy, or that the Allied leaders were equally evil, is to commit a profound moral inversion. Such reasoning ignores the categorical difference between imperfect men defending liberty and a tyrant orchestrating racial genocide. While Churchill and the Allies bore human flaws, as all leaders do, Hitler's regime was built upon an explicitly demonic ideology, the defecation of race, the eradication of conscience, and the systematic extermination of millions. To blur that distinction is not moral sophistication, but moral blindness. It trivializes evil, dishonors the dead, and forgets the lessons paid for with rivers of blood. History must be judged by truth, not cynicism, by moral clarity, not revisionist or deconstruction, confusion. And with that, I want to introduce you guys to our longtime friend, Joe Shanky. Welcome to the podcast, Joe. Well, thanks, guys. Good to be with you guys. Listen in on your on occasion, and eager to get into it. You bear us a great honor. Yeah, the sweetness of it is. I have no idea why anybody listens to us. The sweetness of it is, is that Joe Pastras, 20-odd years ago, and I think was really influential, and then Joe would reach out and just randomly message us and encourage us on the podcast. Like, hey, listen to what you had to say. It was really good and really glad you guys are saying these things. This is really important, and it's just kind of for us like, wow, immeasurable gratitude. Truly, truly. So not to be too savvy, but it means a lot. And then to be able to have you on is also really cool for me anyway. So thank you for for for for gifting us with your presence. And welcome to most most people we invite on have never actually listened to our podcast, and it says a lot that that Joe's listened to an episode or two and actually is willing to come on. Great. So, so I I love your your your opening thought. You communicated to us that acts 22, acts to verses 22 to 24, kind of bring to light a lot of the problem with the post-working census, and that's that everyone runs into every thought and every probable possibility. And get sucked into every potential conspiracy or any point in which they can shred shreds. Shed shed to shed to doubt on on anything that we might think we know about the happenings of World War II that then shaped what they would call the post-work and census. So I thought maybe you could share a little bit about your views just because it is such a unique and and for those of you listening. Act to 22 to 24 this is this is such a unique this is the mind of a person who councils through the Bible that is truly what Joe Joe does. He's a he's a council with the Bible. So could you could you maybe share share some of your thoughts on an act to 23 to 20. I can't say where it's to 22 to act to 22 to 24. Yeah, sure, maybe we can just start. We'll just read it and I give a few some thoughts on it. So X to 22 to 24. I'm not a visual listen to these words Jesus the Nazarene a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst just as your your selves know this man delivered over by the predetermined plan in four knowledge of God you nailed to a cross by the hands of Godless men and put him to death. But God raised him again putting an end to the agony of death since it was impossible for him to be held in its power. So I like this especially in light of this conversation this framework really provides a really a helpful lens for thinking about a very emotionally charged is these emotionally charged historical questions. So rounding the post war consensus as you gave us some background on Hitler nationalism and the contemporary claims about the Jewish influence both then and now. Peter statement about the crucifixion really brings to truth that are very important I think to understand as we look as we look at history backwards and forward. Human human evil is real and God sovereignty purposes ultimate governance over history. It really reminds us that real conspiracies and corrupt power do exist. That is true that is very true Peter does not deny that there are human actors that plot and something even a serious as as the death of Christ is very specific and explicit in saying that Jesus was not a human being. Saying that Jesus was killed by the hands of lawless men that is that is very clear there was real injustice real manipulation of authority real abuse of power. And that biblical realism means that Christians should not pretend that corruption never exists history does contain political manipulation ideological propaganda and hidden agreements about different powerful actors you know at play behind behind the scenes. We're not obligated to accept every official narrative without question right scripture itself models kind of this sober awareness on that power can be abused that means concerns about political influence elite networks or ideological agendas we should never just commit them I'm sorry dismiss them outright. This to also show something equally important that I think has to be part of the equation part of our understanding and it refuses to reduce history to just hidden human control. Even though there is a conspiracy surrounding the crucifixion Peter refuses to interpret the event primarily through the lens of human plotting. He frames it with that phrase the definite plan and for knowledge of God. That theological framing prevents us from from just drifting into conspirator explanations of history on other words yes human scheme. Yes power can be abused but human actors never possess ultimate control over historical outcomes. When discussions about Jewish influence begin to portray an ethnic group as exercising coordinated control over national destiny and the explanation then is starting to drift away from biblical realism and towards some kind of scapegoating logic that can fuel many destructive movements in history. And it's not just Jews it's others as well as we see that in history. X2 keeps us as Christians as believers grounded by remaining true to the understanding that history is not secretly governed by ethnic blocks or hidden elites it's governed by God. And that's probably the biggest point for so many people that have been quote unquote black pill towards the idea that there it goes it goes very nihilistic very fast there's no there is no hope these people are in control we can't do anything in many ways they take out. They take out of being an image bearer of God the idea that there is there is an agency in which God has entrusted specifically to his people to glorify him to be ministers of reconciliation to live faithfully to carry the gospel and make disciples. Because of the overwhelming weight of their view and it is it is specifically their view that there is an overarching global elite that are making the controls upon the way in which they can live and move. And of course you would go to acts to 2224 and then make such a clear argument even now I'm like actually said you would use that act 2234 like wait we're going to go to go to Peter's dissertation and then we go here and I'm like huh and then you start talking I'm like well yeah obviously this is perfect. Yeah like the practical the practical by for the practical by for like the by for a reality of the way of thinking that you just described and this conspiratorial way of thinking is either drowning in a sense of depression and lack of control or it lead in my opinion lead to violence because you were you're so wrapped up in everything being conspiratorial. That your only option is to either do nothing or fight back right which which obviously is there are more options than that because we we do recognize that as Christians again is by the leading Christians like Joe said we do recognize that there is a sovereign authority over all things that he is the one that directs the paths of nations over the course of history he always has he always will. And and therefore in that sense i mean it's in the name of the podcast we just have to we have to strive to be faithful to what the scriptures calls to be faithful and and let the Lord determine the fate of our nation in in the ultimate sense when it comes to that type of thing because there are I appreciate you recognizing there are conspiratorial and propagandistic actors at play I mean we've got big pharma we've got I mean you see there's a twenty twenty election results just did not know. We're spike in Michigan is about to thirty a.m. it looked exactly like the spike on the covid virus on the pro to the protein spike vaccine. But yeah i mean those things are real like i mean you're not not crazy for understanding that there are bad actors but in the same sense. To not have your mind in your heart land on the sovereignty of God and and that reality is to seriously miss the mark of what the Bible calls us to do so that's what I got. Yeah the x x two reminds us the deepest problem in in history is not a particular ethnic groups conspiracy at just reflects our deepest problem is human sin you know you reminded us of other conspiracy groups I mean people are out. To satisfy themselves whether it's big pharma or or whoever I mean we apart from God you know the chaos reigns because of sin and therefore the gospel is the only solution to that now again it doesn't mean we don't speak up we don't point these things out. But national preservation is not the ultimate Christian category. Hmm. You know and let me just say this clear let me clarify i'm not against nationalism. You know i'm not I don't think that's I don't think that's a boogie man word yeah you know and it's become that and certainly the the Nazi type of nationalism is not what i'm talking about. I am thankful for my country that in God's sovereignty and providence i've been allowed to live in. I think it's a stewardship that I have that I have to be faithful with the freedoms and the opportunities and and yeah i'm going to defend that appropriately but national preservation is not the ultimate category. I thought the old testament nations weren't judged by by their weakness but they were they were judged because of their injustice their pride their idolatry so that so the scripture is clear righteousness exalt the nation. Not ethnic suspicion not conspiracy narratives not collective blame and and whether it's on righteousness i'm going to proclaim it yeah i'm going to stand up in the marketplace i'm going to stand up in the best you know wherever i'm going to i'm going to you guys do a great job of it that's what i appreciate. You guys are inspirational that way for a guy in my generation to hear two young guys that really want to know what the word of God has to say and proclaim it to their generation i think that that just inspires me that encourages me. At the same time you know national preservation requires abandoning biblical moral categories such as justice and truthfulness you mentioned to impartiality and what's being preserved is no longer righteous if those are those are the things so. So yeah and i've always i've always been i've always been very comfortable with the phrase christian nationalist just like i've been very comfortable with the phrase christian husband christian father. Christian teacher christian like i've always been very because when you say you are christian anything the determining factor of that thing becomes the Christian part it's always the Christian part that actually determines because there are so many we can all think by God's grace i have a wonderful father but i know many that haven't and so the term father can come with the word. It's own set of baggage but when i strive to be a Christian father it's the Christian that shapes my view of what a father is when i try when i strive to be a Christian husband it shapes my view it is good and right for one to want the good of their country the good of that country when i am a christian nationalist is for my country to come to know christ the truth the way the only source of of life that has been given to man the highest calling to glorify God there's there's something so clear about what a Christian is to be doing that when a Christian puts that moniker in front of any particular now of being it shapes that thing to conform it to christ in his image to conform it to God's word and it's standard so i think that's probably the biggest key i'm not a nationalist for a nationalist sake that would be a fool's errand i am a Christian and therefore i want the good of my nation as defined by christ which changes it changes the discussion in my mind yeah i mean i feel like growing up especially in the circles that we grew up in like there was this really there was this push for spirituality but not really a great concern for the physical like those around us our towns our counties our states our nation and growing up and growing older and looking at the scriptures those who live in our surrounded communities are neighbors and we are to love them and we are to love those closest to us first it's like the the order of amorous discussion right the ordered loves you know but to to cast off anything political or to cast off anything in terms of talking about our government or talking about our nation talking about our economy like all of those things affect our neighbor is treated so we need to enter those spaces but we need to do so really really grounded in the scripture because when you enter those spaces and you have you have a nationalistic tendency but one that's not grounded in christ i think it's really would i mean Joe would you agree that that's that's part of a wicked world view of of a hit larian type figure is a nationalism without christ oh sure because it's self serving yeah it's all self serving it's tribal you know and in that that lead that's that's where the violence and in the hatred and in all of that comes from because it's self serving you know our identity you know our identity you kind of backtrack a little bit you know you were describing our primary identity is that we are well we are created in the image of God then that identity was was corrupted through this our sin nature but it now it's restored in the gospel and now we are in Christ and that that fact of our union with Christ we are united with Christ shapes shapes everything else yes that is it it's not just an adjective it defines who we are why we do what we do and without that that's when we fall into something else always replaces if Christ isn't my identity something else becomes my identity automatically whether it's a sexual identity a political identity or you know the social identity whatever it might be something else is going to fill that and define all those other things yeah and he completely imperfect and deficient way lacking so you can be a little lacking you've been found wanting yes but to the real question Joe was Hitler really a bad guy I mean he couldn't have been that bad of a guy and and so stupid all right you can't even play with it I can't even joke around with it just here here here's here's my thing I don't know maybe I'm crazy this is what bothers me there's I find this I run bullet points to your feet I didn't add bullet point I did I added to leave me alone all right nobody does want to talk about but it's funny just right I did add bullet points it makes me stand out the the thing I hear now is that the the Jews control everything and I always look at somebody that says that they say if the Jews control everything they really suck at control like they're not good at it they what everywhere they turn someone wants to kill them they're just bad at it if that's really the case but putting that up to the side I find this weird parallel in my mind and I'm hoping you can help me with this with this Joe the parallel I find is we are we live in a culture where this this I don't know what to call you you mentioned the woke right when we're talking earlier Jesse I did and maybe now we'll get into like this this flash point discussion oh no he said woke right this this idea that there's a side of the right that vilifies Israel and the Jews now I'm more I admit that I am more pragmatic in this in that I don't care that Israel is a country in the Middle East I if I can leverage that for the good of my nation I mean there's a lot of people in the Middle East really want to kill everything that is anything to do with America freedom the gospel of Jesus Christ so I can leverage a country that that is over there for that I'm all about it but but it sounds it's so funny the blaming of the Jews for so much kind of feels like what Hitler did a little bit like I feel like it was part of the planks of what he was doing in Germany under the national socialist party I'm wondering if you can does that does that sound similar to what what he was doing Joe oh absolutely Jews constituted less than 1% of Germany's population in the in the 30s well less than 1% that's not a lot no now some of them were were visible like in intellectual or financial sectors or in some of the arts and whatnot but that visibility was transformed into like a myth of coordinated ethnic control that Hitler got a whole of and and really used as ethnic scapegoating to blame everything you know on on the Jews you know what's really interesting and then what you know you referred to the woke right there Jesse I was thinking about this actually I was thinking about this this evening that ethnic suspicion where the Jews are even now kind of portrayed as a coordinated threat to national identity or cultural survival and all of that it's interesting because the woke right will you know will be in rightfully so that's what they're going to do is they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to do that and then they're going to be opposed to the concept of systemic racism. systemic racism is evil. also the Jews. Right. But white people are being systemically racist. Wait a second. So if I'm right in this, I believe Hitler wrote a book where he was really trying to communicate his personal struggles. I think I think he might have entitled it my struggle. my struggle. It's a beautiful say. When he wrote this book, did he actually give any intent that would even hint at his views on ethnicity or that there would be an issue in that way? I've been told that the book is pretty vitriolic though I myself have never read it because I refuse to read it unless it's in the original language and I personally haven't learned to read German yet so that's really my only reason. Wait, you can read Greek and Hebrew? Jesse, you're voting. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, it's just mine cop. I refuse to read that in English. It has to be in German. It's just, it's only specifically here. Well, it sounds angry you're in German, I'm sure. You might have to repeat your question, Justin. I think I derailed this. Did Hitler give any indication in mine cop from your perspective that may have led us led him towards this ethnic movement that he had when he utilized escape goat? Well, he presented history as a biological struggle among the races and he asserted that the Americans, especially Germans, are the only culture creating race destined to rule. All other groups exist on a descending scale of worth with the Jews place pretty much at the bottom. The supposed duty of government he said was to preserve racial purity through breeding, segregation, and ultimately the elimination of the inferior stock. This does start to sound a lot more well-gride. I started reading one of the books that Joe sent over and it's made me more concerned. I'm sorry, Joe, I didn't continue. Well, it's a racial Darwinism. Certainly influenced by that. Others have tied Darwinism into some of this as well. The forms of ideological eugenics laws, forced sterilization, genocide. I mean, that splashes over into the, what do you call a group? Our abortionist people there. Yeah, it's just like an art. That's just Margaret Sanger's whole thing. Right. That's what this planet parenthood's founding. Exactly. So it's anti-seminism at the core as you can get. He defines Jews as the racial and moral antithesis of the Aryans. You choose Jews of corrupting nations through capitalism, socialism, journalism, the arts. That's why he went after all of them. Even at those letters, they killed or sent them to the concentration camps. You blame them for Germany's defeat in World War I. And why the Vimers, Republic democracy, failed and even blamed them for moral decay. Man, they do have a lot of power. I didn't even realize. It wasn't just prejudice. This was central, this was a central organizing myth that, that motivated his extermination to purify the nation. How, how do you, just in a, in a broad view, how was he able to motivate the, the German people towards this? Because it's always been, I just heard of a book. And I didn't, I didn't immediately put it in my Amazon card because the person that was recommending it said, it's also very, it's not for the faint of heart. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe I can't read that. Maybe it'll be too much for me. My, my heart can't take much more. But it was, it was basically how, how he desensitized over time, these young German men to be able to blindly take people out into the woods and just shoot them, you know, ten at a time, to be able to disconnect them from, from like, how was, how was he able to take his, the vitriol he wrote down? How was he able to actually encapsulate that into a national movement? Propaganda. That's, that's also mentioned in Mein Kampf. There's a whole section, he devoted to the art of propaganda. How to appeal to emotion, simplify messages and repeat slogans over and over again until belief is formed. He said, truth is, is less important than effectiveness. Ah, there it is. I'd rather be, I'd rather be morally right. What did AOC say? Oh, I can't leave it now. I'd rather be, I'd rather be, it was the same thing. It was, I'd rather, I'd rather feel good than, than actually be true. It was a matter of your right. It just matters if it feels good. What did you say it? Oh, AOC, I'm sorry, I didn't even mean to, no, Jesse's got to google it, of course. I don't even, I don't think I have enough. Yeah, and certainly through education and indoctrination of youth. He called for an education system that suppresses independent thought and exalts obedience, physical fitness and racial ideology. Children become instruments of the state. Oh, and there, oh, that doesn't that ring about? Oh, gosh. The public education system always comes back. Jesse, would you like to rant for 30 minutes on the public education? I was loved to, Justin. Thank you for inviting me onto this podcast. No, don't. So if I, this conversation, Joe, it's, it's made me think of one of my, one of my friends on Facebook. I started noticing him posting a little bit more about mind comp recently. And it was right about in the time that you were sending me these documents and we were conversing. He says, he says, this is back in January. You all need to read mind comp. It's one of the best explanations of our current political situation. It talks about economics, talks about the family. But then like from, from there, you get to a month later saying something like, hold on one second, saying something like literally less than a month later, hit there was too nice. And then saying something just a day later, Jews are the biggest piece of garbage in the entire world. Not just the Epstein stuff, but their federal reserve and our tire education system and our intelligence community and our military affairs and our medical industry. These people are dementia monsters who look like every race pretend to be every religion and political group all serving one agenda their own. Disgusting people with zero regards to fellow men. So I mean, you, you, I literally on this Facebook timeline see the trajectory of of him cosying up to literally Nazi ideology. And then you just see the spiral from there. It's crazy. What's really crazy? I just want to say real quick Woodrow Wilson is the guy who gave us the federal reserve. Let's be honest. Okay. He was the worst president. Probably Jewish ever. No, he's not Jewish. He's a southerner that came to New Jersey. So we have to claim him, but he was a horrible president and the federal reserve is his fault. And he was a horrible, horrible disgusting. AOC says my choice isn't what I breathe in. It's what I exhale. Yes, the quote I was looking for. It was not that the quote is the quote from AOC was, there's a lot of people more concerned about being precisely factually and semantically correct than about being morally right. Which is to say, right, that morally right exists out of being factually right. Which is basically to say, what is that actually anyway? So, Joe, I have a question. So one of the things I see, I see these post-work consensus, I'll just use the term, work right people. What they do is, they'll take a conversation like the one that we're literally having right now. And they'll say, this conversation stems from post-work consensus presuppositions. That you're reading history wrong, that we are just accepting the narrative, and we're basing our conclusions, thoughts and opinions on the narrative. So, how do you talk to someone who, who on a fundamental level, believes that you're believing something that's just not true? How do we know what's true? And how can we kind of stand on that truth when we're talking about really any historical conversation? But particularly this one, which seems to be so prescient in our society. Are we arguing facts? Are we arguing truth? There's a dilemma there. What's interesting is that, you know, I had a thought there, just people don't merely examine evidence, they interpret the evidence. Through the vantage point of whatever position they occupy. In other words, we can look at facts and agree on the facts even. But we interpret it through, again, our presuppositions are different vantage points. I mean, right now it's a big issue of standpoint of epistemology. In other words, truth is determined by perspective. One social position or lived experience fundamentally shapes what they see as true, credible or obvious. Now, in our 20th century sociological minefield, you know, things are seen through, you know, like today, through race, through sexual orientation. And those determine how true truth really is. You know, we say is, well, perspectives, influence, perception, it does not determine reality. You know, yeah, we all have presuppositions. We all have things that influence and shape our thinking. You are upbringing and all of that, but that doesn't determine what's true. That doesn't determine what's real. So as believers, we pursue evidence and documentation, careful presuppositional reasoning. We're going to use that term strategically. Rather assuming a group identity. We have to be careful that our group identity doesn't over shape, you know, what we, we, we, we determine as reality. So I think if we're going to be fair, if we're going to be careful, if we're going to be responsible, if we're going to be, if we'll go even, how dare you. We need to, we need to basically acknowledge, at least starting with ourselves and even within our own group and then beyond, acknowledge our own interpretive location. Where are we in our interpretive location? What are our presuppositions? And then, and then I think more practically speaking, ask what fears or loyalties or experiences shape the way I interpret or read into this. You know, whatever the issue is. You want to present the post-war consensus. What, what fears, loyalties, experiences shape the way I interpret or read into this? I do need to engage in incredible voices outside my sphere of influence. Test my theories, test my opinions. Truth is actually clarified when competing perspectives are examined. I'm not afraid of that. In fact, some, oftentimes it just confirms what I, what I believe is true. I'm not threatened by that. And then I needed to distinguish between evidence and narrative. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I've been reliably informed that narrative is the only evidence you need. I mean, we have to be careful how we read the Bible with narrative. Amen. Amen. So if that's true, you know, certainly all these other things. People may agree on facts, but tell different stories about their meanings. Then we need to be willing to revise our conclusions as biblical evidence becomes clear. Yeah. Because we're all learning and growing. We're all aware of that. It's so hard to do now because everyone feels that to admit that they were wrong invalidates all of them. Yeah, it's like a holistic invalidation of them, their personhood. And it's probably just the greatest working of Satan's lies because it's it's humility. and he wants us proud. I mean, if we're proud and arrogant, we are not going to be moving towards the gospel. It's just a fact. You can't move towards, I was a wretched sinner and Christ saved me. I am now a son of God, and I had nothing to do with me. I hated him and he made me a son. So, I mean, yeah, that's just so funny. That makes just makes too much sense. So, with that in mind, I think a mature Christian approaches history within intellectual humility about our perspective. And we're disciplined in our pursuit of the evidence and our confidence is in God's sovereign governance of history. Here's the thing, history unfolds under the providence of God. And see if you agree with this. It's much clearer looking backward. Over time things become clear. Again, in the context of God's redemptive providence, things become clear. And the other thing is humility is required. And I think here's a basic reason, especially in these intellectual arguments. I mean, very clearly, we're warned that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. We don't want God resisting us as we're trying to make sense of all of this stuff. That's a big part too. Pride, God resists the proud. So, yeah, we do need to admit when we're wrong. That's not a bad thing. That's acknowledging that we're all learning and growing. And we don't have all the, you know, we don't have the final say on truth. Because we don't, we don't, here's the other incredible thing about God's providence. This blows my mind. God knows the cause and effect of everything that's happened in history and how it all ties together to accomplish his redemptive purpose. Every cause and effect, every cause and effect, we don't have that. We don't even come close to knowing all of that. So, us trying to explain and come up with these conspiracies about ethnic groups and whatnot, we don't know all the cause and effect. And that's, again, that's the piece of God's providence that we have to keep in mind. That ought to humble our approach. Amen. Justin, I remember that, I remember that anecdote of the person that you said that I talked to that I didn't remember I talked to. Okay. I remember that anecdote now. It was, it was in the context of, it was in the context of questioning the post work consensus about World War II. And they said to me, they said, well, well, you saw like our government twist and, and propagandize during COVID. And I'm like, yeah, I did. She's like, so why wouldn't we think that they did that back then? And I'm like, well, we lived through COVID and we saw that happening in real time, right? So it would be like if I wrote a book on what actually happened during COVID. And in 60 years, someone looks back and says, oh, that, that, that book's wrong. That, that book's wrong. It's, it's, I'm not going to, I'm not going to believe that it's probably propagandized and spun and everything like that. Like, you, like at some point, our minds have to close on, on the truth. Like there were people that actually lived in, in enduring the events of World War II. We have many of their firsthand accounts. We have one of the most documented events in modern history. It's, it's pretty incredible. Like we have a lot of firsthand information that we can be fairly certain and trust and actually used to formulate our opinions. So, yeah, you know, it's interesting. Just if I could just interrupt for a second. I'm done. Please do. Some of that, some of that documentation, a lot of that documentation of what happened to the Jews is meticulously provided by the Nazis themselves. Because they were just meticulous about keeping records. So the very evidence that we have about what happened is recorded by the, by the perpetrators themselves. So that's, that's what's fascinating about, about that. Yeah. And another thought that I'm reminded of too, somebody was, I can't remember where I heard this, but I, I've heard it in several other places and not. And this is so true. When you get two generations away from a major historical event or whatever it is, when you get two generations away, the memory fades. And the intensity of what took place is easily minimized because people have no generational recollection. You know, I, I had a grandfather in World War One, another grandfather in World War Two. My father was in Korea. I know, I know personally, they're in heaven now. I know two survivors of Auschwitz and Berkinaw. Concentration camps. I know I've been to Auschwitz and Berkinaw. I mean, it's, you have those kinds of connections. And so because of that, you know, it's easier to say, boy, that's ridiculous to minimize all of that. You know, what's the matter with you? But I can understand it. When you get generations removed from these things, that's where it, that's just as a field day for all these conspiracies and, and everything else to settle in and reinterpret what took place. Yeah. I mean, it's obvious because I know my father and I know my, I know, I know both of my grandfather's, I did not know my great grandfather's. I, I, I didn't have a good relationship with them. I know of what they did because I know of what I was told for my grandfather's and my father, but that's, that's as good as it gets. And that's basically what we're talking about with history. Because there is a gap in time, it opens up to, we now have that, that it is, it is essentially chronological snobbery that we can then fill in gaps how we choose to see fit. And because of, in many ways, because of the secularization of the culture and the world, we also believe that we are better. We must be better than they. So we have the right to fill in gaps as we see fit to do. And, and that is, you know, that is, that this is, this is, and I don't know if this makes sense to you, Joe, or you Jesse, I, I agree that the post work in census one is true, that it was, there was a movement towards this. They are bad. We are good. And we just need to accept a secularization across the world. And then we, we all become brothers and everything is great. I believe that is that is what, what tended to happen, especially inside of our political system. After the, after World War II, simultaneously, because I don't agree with every point of the post work in census, I'm on the outside. And, and it's like two things can be true at once. It can be true that the secularization of culture and the post truth era in which we live is a serious problem. And also, not everything has to go exactly as you say in order for it to be right again, particularly around, you know, ethnicities and, and, and nations and what is good or right for us to do. That, that's where I really get, I get stuck because I listen to a lot of the people that, that maybe they're not on the road right or whatever. But they're, they're in this much more coistered nationalistic view. And I say, yes, I agree. I agree that it's, that it's bad that we didn't actually care well for the souls of, of our nation that we, we, we did not focus on what was right for us to be doing here. That we did not care about our borders, that we did not, we did not care about what it meant to move so much of our economy to other places, our production to other places. I, I think there's real problems there. At the same time, I'm not concerned about preserving my, my whiteness, I'm concerned about preserving what is morally right as God has stated it. And so then all of a sudden it gets to be a problem because I'm like, no, I don't, I don't have a problem with Israel is existence. I don't. Then all of a sudden I'm on the outside again. And it's like, wait, I'm trying to agree with you. I'm trying to say I see it. But at the same time, I'm not where you are because I've, I've also seen the reality of what it means to be in Christ. And there's some sort of disconnect with the fact that World War II really happened Hitler was, was really evil. And simultaneously there were, there was evil on the part of the Allies war crimes happened on all sides. People did bad things because war is a, a great evil and we were putting it on the biggest scale war it ever been seen on ever. That can all be true. And it doesn't change the fact that what happened needed to happen because of the evil that was being done across the world. And honestly, perhaps if, perhaps if we hadn't baited, we hadn't baited Japan with Pearl Harbor, we would have never had the issues that we had. But we kind of did. We put a lot of ships in one spot right there. We pretty much said, hey, what are you going to do about it? And then, you know, we, we found ourselves right in the middle. This, I have, I have the perfect thing and I know we got to wrap up, but I have, I have the perfect thing to illustrate what you just said, Joe, about, about people forgetting. So, I was doing, I was doing our, our review work for this week, the memory work. And I was like, oh, let me see what the history sentence is because I like to, my wife was out on an appointment in homeschooling. Sorry, that, that was the context there in homeschooling. My wife was out and I try to do easy things when she's out because I have six kids and there's a lot, it's just a lot. It's a lot of kids. So I, I popped on their history, their history facts for the week and it was talking about what started and, and, and did the US's involvement or not what started, but what were two. What were two key events. Yeah, sure, key events at the beginning and end of World War II for the United States. And the one at the beginning was the battle of Midway and the one at the end was Hiroshima Nagasaki. And I was like, oh, the battle of Midway, I just watched the movie Midway like two weeks ago. I was like, oh, sweet, let me go on YouTube and find, find something on Midway. John Wayne paying his penance for not actually serving in World War II. And so I, I slapped on a history, a history channel episode on the battle of Midway and we were watching it and it was, it was talking about this, this guy that did something and then it showed the guy. They were interviewing the man and I paused it and I turned to my kids and I said, guys, this is so cool. It's so cool. This, the graphics are silly and they're not, you know, to Marvel standards. But this was made when these men that flew those planes and were on that ship were alive and they could talk to them like he flew that plane. Like I was like, I forgot Joe. I grew up watching those history channel documentaries with my dad. I forgot that those people were around. And I was just like, well, thank God now for the history channel. And for all of the work that they did to preserve all those interviews and it was great. They, in the course of their production, they found two, two best friends that were on the USS Enterprise that had gotten separated after the war and neither of them knew that either was alive until they made that episode. And they got in contact with both of them and they actually reunited them for a time and recorded it. And they were flipping through their through their photo books and everything. And I was like, I'm telling you, Joe, just this morning that happened to me, the act of forgetting. And it's, I really made sure to punch it in there for the kids like this really happened. Those people were real. They're talking to the guy that got shot in the leg. They're talking to that guy right now. So it's so it's so true. So so true. Yeah, let me take it to another level. I've actually talked to those guys, not those two guys, but I've talked to World War II vets pilots, a guy who landed in the first wave in Normandy. Wow. So yeah, that's a great observation, Jesse. And yet so you used to have another memory that I have of again, that making that connection being closer, actually talking to people, you know, face to face. You're kind of you're seeing it on a history channel. And man, that's a great observation on your part. And pointing that out to the kids as well. Because, you know, your kids are my grandkids are they're further out. There's several generations out. That doesn't mean anything to them. Yeah. You know, World War II shaped my dad, even though he didn't fight in that is so all of that is very interesting indeed to that to the nature of our conversation. Yeah. The funny part is the same problem happens with with the Bible and with Jesus. Because we want to sit here and debate the scriptures. And that probably the further we get away and the more scholarship we get, the less they're willing to just believe what the word says, the less they're willing to accept what the history says about when things are written and what was written in them. We're talking about the fact that the Bible is true because it wouldn't have people would not have died for it, right? To be preserved the scraps of paper that we have the manuscripts that we have of the Bible to be preserved because they wouldn't have died for that lie. They were alive. Right. We're talking about people that were firsthand witnesses to the works of Jesus Christ as the Bible our New Testament was being penned were alive and living. People don't die. People don't die for a lie they don't believe in. People die for the truth that they wholeheartedly believe was absolutely true. And they were alive to see it. But we're so far removed from that that we feel we can now just rewrite it. And it's no wonder that we have Christians that would say, well, of course, that's why the Bible is true. And then say, yeah, but Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy and that many Jews didn't really die. And well, so it's just so ironic that they would accept the Bible even though scholars will attack it the same way they're attacking the happenings of World War II. Yeah. There's a question that I would ask, were you there? For those that doubt for those that question, were you there? So then our goal is to get to get as close to those who were there. And even the veracity of the scripture over the centuries, you know, historical documentation, you guys know this. I'm sure, you know, there's there's more historical documentation that proves the existence of Christ. And, and we're talking. Then, then there is a Julius Caesar. We're talking like documents that are like dozens for Julius Caesar, intense of thousands for the scriptures and the existence of Christ. So, I mean, there is that that reaches in. We got a, you know, we, we have the evidence, you know, we have to be diligent and disciplined to to study it. Amen. So if you were to give one encouragement as we close out to the generation that is, I guess we would say very online, the very online generation. That's bumping into these myriad of whether it be re the best word is deconstruction of historical analysis that we have on the happenings from World War II to now. That's that's bumping into what are deconstructing was the nice way of saying it. That's bumping into these conspiracies. Revisionist history revisionist revisionist standpoints. What would be what would be your advice to them as as Christians, because we're speaking to predominantly Christians that are interacting with this material. What would be your your advice to them on how they should be consuming and then synthesizing this information into how they're actually living. Oh, wow, you just, you just kind of triggered a thought that so this is pretty raw and undeveloped, but welcome to the carpet feed a podcast. That's good. And you strategically chose the word deconstructing history. So deconstruction has a lot of meat behind it in a lot of different contexts deconstructing faith, things like that. And this is my biblical counseling background informing this first reaction. And that is my experience, my observation has been people who are deconstruct and revisionist and things like that are usually angry about something or hurt about something or have been hurt, disappointed, betrayed. Something of that nature and they're reacting. They're in a reaction mode because their world has come apart. They've been betrayed something, something is upset them something legitimate even. I'm certainly not making light of that. So now they're reacting. And that's what's shaping their their worldview. That's what shaping what is true. They're upset. They're hurt. They're angry. There's something something's gotten under their crawl as we used to say. And that's something I would say, okay, you better identify that is that's going to be shaping your presuppositions and everything else. And that's your standpoint of epistemology right there. And so I would say, you know, what is it that you're upset about? What are you trying to prove? You know, and are we just looking looking for proof texts to what we're upset about? Now, and I say that even looking to my own in my own heart that that can that can shape my quest for truth. It's just being a proof texture and finding finding people or finding things that prove prove my emotional state right now. And that's going to that's going to blind my my pursuit of truth. You know, truth is truth is truth isn't discovered. It's revealed. Yeah, amen. We got to be reminded of that. Yeah, in this. And so really the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy is understanding. That's got to be my starting point. It's got to be my starting point. And that truth is consistent with the mind will character and being of God. You know, and again, that's got to be the starting point. Amen. Amen. And just thinking your answers so so true because when we are reacting to hurt, we cannot be surprised when the resultant is something that only continues to hurt and bring more hurt. That is that is what we tend to do when we are when we are motivated by that that level of reaction. Yeah. Amen. Thanks so much for coming on with us, Joe. You spent a lot of time here with us and I'm really grateful for it. It's good to see you guys and chat with you guys as well. I again, I appreciate your your your ministries both in your local church. I know you're very committed to shepherding. And I know you guys have jobs as well. Families. It's fun watching what you guys post here, what you post. And then even on Facebook and different picks and seeing the kids growing up and your interactions. It's, yeah, sometimes I wish I was there, you know. And you missed you. I missed your dad. Yeah, I know he was really jealous, Joe. I'm not going to lie. He was really jealous. He will be anxiously waiting for this to drop to be able to listen to it. That's for sure. But this is this is a sweet time. I really appreciate your insight and I appreciate your ministry to both of us. Absolutely. All right. Well, that's that's mutual now. Amen. Well, I as we like to say at the end of every episode of your Christian, we hope this has encouraged you when we hope that you this day would seize the faith.