Just Do It Right: BD Fleming on Christian Liberty and the Theology of Cigar Smoking

 Welcome to another episode of the Carpe Feet A podcast where if the shoe fits you wear it and if the truth hurts you bear it I am Justin Gruber and I am Jesse Gruber and today we hope you will seize the faith Hey everybody welcome to Carpe Feet A episode number 238 I love how after I hit record you still delayed as if we were not in the same room together because we were just getting nervous I get nervous that I'm gonna mess it up and I don't want there to be clear audio But Jesse's here with me tonight we're here together better than queer audio. That's for sure. Well you will not be finding that on the Carpe Feet podcast Now, Jethay maybe a little bit. A little bit queer audio Queer pod for the straight god I don't know that's bad for the work That's not gonna work at all. Why did you bring God into this? Strike this from the record. Leave him out. I will go see myself out. If you'll excuse me I just... Alright, so we just got done talking about how I don't edit these things out Okay Apologies episode 238 Jesse how are you tonight? I'm doing great man. That's awesome. We have a very special guest on tonight. He is a renowned author He is a wonderful father He's a okay husband. We're not gonna go too crazy on that But I'll just give it a try We have author BD Fleming on the night. How are you tonight? Man, I'm fantastic. Appreciate you guys having me back on. We are very excited to have you on the BD stands for best dad That's what it is Yeah, I'll take it Yes, what does it stand for? You'll never know Could be anything put your guesses in the comments Whoever emails us and gets it right gets a sticker. I like to put things like Jesse Yeah Jesse gets to bail I'm just gonna link your credit card to the Shopify account so that you just pay for all the shipping That is totally what happens. So it's all good. Let's go. I'm curious Eventually. All right speaking of hold on hold on. Can we can we say that we're gonna be at a conference? Can we just intro that? I can do that. I am going to be at a conference. I declare bankruptcy. I declare bankruptcy Oh my gosh, I don't even know what the link is. I think before you're going to announce whether or not we're gonna be at any given conference You should know what the conference is when it is the link to the conference and have details about the conference So what I'm telling you everyone I am working on it. No one knows if we're gonna be at a conference I am and I love that you bring this up now What I tried to in tried to intro our guests so that we could have a conversation We're going the conversation will happen regardless. It's it is oh my gosh And you wonder why don't it's not the G3 conference That conference actually I was gonna make a joke like the week that happened and I was like that is just wrong You know the real problem about this whole thing We're doing a podcast on that right now. We have guests on okay the reason the reason Joe I know is to showcase the guest but I mean BD is basically like The reason the reason Doug Wilson and Joe Levin turned us down to have that debate is specifically because of this kind of stuff This stuff this is right here. This is why they don't want to come on. I don't know what you're talking about We're gonna be at a conference guys. It's an October. It's the America Reforged conference. We'll talk about it later I'm supposed to do here come and see us. Justin introduced our unnamed guest or on I already did and I named it BD Fleming do it again the author BD Fleming you can find his work at the old forgepress.com We recommend all resources on the old forgepress.com not just by author BD Fleming But by any of the various authors you will find on it because it is a very well aggregated list of Christian authors doing Christian works so that you can actually be sharpened for the fight in the culture And BD you have a new book out would you like to share with us a little bit about the book that you have just finished that's up on the website now You have an absolutely so it's called to the glory of God and it is a theology of cigar smoking Which might sound a little bit weird does sound a little weird it's definitely a niche book but It is about cigars like I wouldn't try to pretend otherwise But in like if you look at the cover it's got like a cigar on there and everything but the point is it's really using the cigar as a case study So that the book is actually about Christian liberty And so really the central premises it's asking the question whether Christians still know how to enjoy the world that God made So one of the claims that I make in theirs that we often confuse gratitude within indulgence And so ultimately it's not an argument that every Christian should smoke a cigar I had that comment pretty quickly You know yes or at least today is the 16th yesterday was the first day it was out and I got two messages One was basically asking if I'm promoting the every good Christian man should smoke cigars And then the other one was basically asking how I can promote that with the negative health benefits of tobacco And so I've already had a little bit a little bit of pushback Could you say what negative health impacts of it? Yeah, it's like nicotine's great for you So wait a second someone's on the floor That's a different podcast but if you want to have that one we can do that one now too It's whatever I don't want to have that one now Just see it's really good It's really a book about trying to bring all of life under the lordship of Christ That's how I would say We are for that We like that here Yeah so this is a carpefeat Absolutely this is a pretty important topic just generally speaking There are some good texts a lot of times There are serious theological points that come up when you're talking about Christian liberty So one of those that always comes into my mind right away And this is just given I think the general ethos that really it's funny because no one ever talks about it because it's kind of like the We have we have some wonderful disby brothers in Christ that listen to this podcast So this is not a demeaning thing anyway The reality is that the dispensationalism spread through deep articulate conference style teaching throughout our nation actually pretty polistically And so in that there was some underpinnings of potential legalism like I said what you could say There's an underpinnings of just the what do you look like to others as a governing factor in how we then what we can then do or not do And so immediately one of the things that in thinking about Christian liberty that I've that I've had to kind of really learn well from the scriptures Would be something like the principle of the weaker brother in the scripture I don't know if there's anything that you bumped into Yeah, talk a little bit about it you know Romans 14 is what you're referring to there and did have a little bit of conversation on the weaker brother But really what I was trying to define is that you know Christian liberty is is not permission to do whatever you want But it is freedom from man made laws and you know you mentioned the dispensationalism the church that I go to now is a reformed church But it started out as an IFB independent fundamentalist Baptist church and you know I grew up in the south and so I've seen a lot of this and felt a lot of it I've been to churches where you know I knew the pastors very well they enjoyed cigars and things like that but they had to hide it because You know there were there were people that they knew in the congregation who would leave immediately if they knew that they even smoked a cigars and so like you know alcohol is one discussion And you know I always felt like a cigar is like it's you know it's harmless as far as not not not the health benefits necessarily but it's it's harmless it's a cigar It's not even like you know alcohol or something like that and and so it kind of surprised me when when I found out how much that was like a hot topic issue That was part of the reason that I ended up writing the book is just having so many friends who felt the need to sort of hide the fact that they enjoyed a good cigar We now then yeah the one of the one of the things I always turn to in the scriptures whenever we were going to talk about something just anything like Christian liberty anything like and join just the gifts you know what's sipping into the microphone Jesse I waited until you started talking so I could do a total audio medium and no one knows what's happening that was not added side of like fact that was Jesse deciding that was the appropriate time to slurp a can of soda So what were you saying Justin one of the verses I always enjoy there's a lot of things that have to be squared when you're talking about Christian liberty which is probably why you want to book on it It's probably a good time to read a book but the the the Psalms the Psalms is always a great place to to run for vivid imagery when we're trying to understand a bit about the maybe the the less depicted aspects I think of God and a vivid way So I'm 16 or some 16 11 which says that will show me the path of life of life in that presence is the fullness of joy and at the right hand there are pleasures forever more and I'm always I'm always confronted by that idea that with God God desires us to have pleasure like that that particular word and I think that there's a maybe something to do with a set of system that's creeped in to our Christian walk where pleasure in and of itself or finding pleasure is somehow to be diminished instead of exalted if that makes sense like pleasures equated with Oh that what am I enjoying this too much should I be enjoying this is it is it long that I enjoy this I think that that idea of joy and pleasure come deeply into the conversation of Christian Christian liberty Yeah, yeah, I think that's good. I mean I think one of the things is with with this discussion you have to if the first question that pops into your mind is am I allowed to do this I think that's actually the wrong framing I think the question is actually deeper and it should be something more like can I faithfully and wisely do this being thankful to God for this gift Yeah, that's absolutely that's absolutely at 100% Yeah, but you know I mean the book is not only about Christian liberty like a lot of the discussion is on the goodness of creation but you know we also talk about moderation I spend a lot of time talking about masculine fellowship within the book so you know some of the best conversations that I've ever had as a man have been around a fire pit with a bunch of guys smoking a cigar and part of that I think is because you know it takes you know I use a lot of analogy in this book to like you know with a cigar you have usually you break your cigar into thirds like when you're smoking it like the first third the second third and sort of the final third and so you know one of the things that I talk about is like that first third of the cigar when you're smoking it is is is really just kind of getting acquainted with the cigar like the flavors haven't actually really come through and I think I can talk about how like you know that that first five to 10 to 15 minutes of discussion around a fire pit is all just very surface level and then somebody usually says something that takes the conversation deeper and then you start to actually get to know each other and you know you do this long enough and you start to learn things about people and so part of what I wanted to do is talk about the goodness of creation the goodness of masculine fellowship and then the importance of slowing down and so I even kind of you know it's some of its tongue and cheek like I say that from the outset like I'm some of the things I'm going to say you know or just you know I wanted to write a fun book about cigars to like I've written so many of these things that are all serious and I wanted to write something that was a little bit more playful too and so I talked about how like but it is it is a serious book but it's playful as well and so I talked about like the importance of slowing down and how I think a lot of the theological mistakes that people make are because they want quick answers and so they don't want to take the time to dig through you know theological topics that take time and that you know if you think about it theologian spent their whole lives trying to you know mine the scriptures and we think that we can get our theology from you know tick tock and Instagram reels and stuff like that and so part of what I was saying is like a cigar forces you to slow down and then I sort of do a little bit of like a really quick biography of like Charles Virgin you know CS Lewis Tolkien chest or ten you know people like that who also smoked cigars or pipes and and you know so what I think that I want people to understand is like we shouldn't be suspicious of ordinary people and we should be suspicious of ordinary pleasures we should submit them to the Lordship of Christ. Yes and amen I think one of the apart from the Romans message Paul writes about the weaker brother particularly in 1 Corinthians 8 but that carries all the way through to the Lord's table when he's getting you know further into chapter 9 chapter 10 he's getting deeper into you know chapter 8 he'll say I'll never eat anything if it's going to cause my brother to sin and then you know that's chapter 10 he's like if you sit down to a table and somebody gives you food eat whatever's put in front of you for the glory of the Lord right and all the way to the point of whether you eat a drink whatever you do due to the glory of the Lord and so there's this balance that has to come into play in understanding I'm going to live my life as modus operandi glorify God which is why the title of your book is you know obviously intensely important to the glory of God is the title of the book I find it very good to know that you didn't write a niche book on cigar smoking because initially I'm like oh why don't you just cut out you know I don't know 97% of the audience that could purchase a book so the book is not just about cigar smoking. This is not this is not going to be my best seller but I do think if if folks are this is important yeah if folks read it and they actually give it a chance and I told one of the guys in our congregation I was like this is written almost as much for a person who has never touched a cigar as for the person who you know smokes a cigar once a week and enjoys it and you know has has a good time smoking a cigar with a bunch of her friends. Because I really wanted to write it with the thought process that like most people who see the title will be turned off but if like if for instance it's recommended to them and they're like okay I'll pick it up that they could be edified as well. So let me go ahead yeah go ahead you're great. No I was just going to say one of the things you know when you're talking about the weaker brother one of the lines that I haven't in the book is that the weaker brother is not merely the person who objects most loudly he is someone whose conscience sincerely fears that participating would be unfaithful of God. And so you know when you're thinking about that it's not just the weaker brother you know we often well in the reform circles that I'm in a lot of times the weaker brother kind of gets bashed down right. And I didn't want to do that here like I want to give the benefit of the doubt and say that usually it's a conscience issue right and so it would be sin for them if they were doing something against their conscience right. And then I said that the mature Christian does not mock a tender conscience and so that's one of the things that like I wanted to be clear about is like this in nowhere in this book am I mocking somebody who says you know what I really don't think it's right to say. And I can't do that to the glory of God and so that's what I say throughout the book like if you can't do it to the glory of God you shouldn't do it. That makes sense because if we're supposed to be glorifying God and you can't do something to his glory then definitely don't do that thing. Right. Right. Whatever it is. But I think that the I think that there's a tendency in we grew up in a very sensitive Christian environment background with our education and our attendance. So I feel like is that it was an appropriate word. Okay. And I grew up in that background too. I wouldn't have said that since then I would have I mean that's a very nice word. It was a very nice word. I chose a very nice word. Good. Good. We grew up in a very sensitive environment and I think that there's in those in that type of environment there is a tendency to idolize the weaker brother to the point where everyone must bow to the weaker brother. But one of the things that is the vegan that ruins the block party right like every time. Never send out blanket invites to something because those people show up not wheat dairy allergy and I only eat cucumbers. Great. Well, no we're having the barbecue now. But there's a tendency to idolize that person when I believe it was I think Justin you said this and it's stuck with me ever since possibly probably you or dad said it was that like the weaker brother is a weaker brother. And we shouldn't let them we shouldn't let them stay in their weakness. We should do what we can to inform them in strength and disciple them into what a right what a right and informed conscious looks like. That doesn't mean that we get to allow them to violate their conscience. But it is we do make an effort not to idolize them and also not to mock them but to disciple them into maturity. Yeah. Because we do want to have consciences informed by the scriptures that that would be the goal. The reason we call it the weaker brother is because they are weaker. And the Greek is doing some things there the the weaker brother is not it's not just a powerlifting competition where you know you can't get your bench up high enough to qualify. It's it's actually an ailment situation. It's more of an infirmity. And when you put it that way you never like all right I'm looking way to the gym out. Sure I might poke one at another Jim bro who's like can't can't you know bench join it. I'm like bro come like get your way up. But when you look at it as someone who might be who's sick or who is suffering a malady you actually want to care for that person. And that's what the Greeks actually doing here when it's talking about the weaker brother is talking about someone who needs to be nurtured so that they can become healthy again. And we want all believers to be to be healthy and that's the view of the weaker brother it's actually never a weaker. It's not a a where you're always and I'm always addicted to this forever now because I was in a it's actually loving a brother so they can go from the the infirm brother to the healthy brother and it's always an issue of worship. And that's where the conscience really comes in because every time Paul speaking about it he's talking about a person who can't separate false worship with a thing they connect the thing or the doing of a thing to worshiping a false god to worshiping themselves they connect it to that and they don't actually bring it rightly under the worship of God. And often if I if I can add to that really is part of what I think. You made such a good point that I want to try and piggyback on it and that's that ultimately a lot of times what they do when when they start to do that is like it's not just their conscience at that point they also begin to bind other believers consciences. And so what they've done is turn something that God has not declared as sinful into something that is you know an extra biblical rule. Yeah and so we would we would want to correct that theology without mocking them to the to the point that we are making earlier but at the same time we can't let them stand there and you know say something is sinful when God hasn't declared sinful. And I think that's an important note yeah maybe not initially I mean at some point you get to mock them because that's what Jesus did. Maybe not maybe not a first time. It takes you a while to become you know a profit of bail on top of the mountain like you know but once you get there for mocking you. Yeah for sure. If we were to pull and go good. So you know you've got this life is full of dichotomies right like there's the ditch on each side of the road and so you've got. The horses on the what I said see horses I can't believe this I don't know go ahead Brian please continue see and horses see the sea and horses yet. No you've got you've got the legalist right and then you've got the liberty and who you know if if you asked most people the legalist is probably going to be the one that looks more holy right but in actual fact those are both. Disordered views so the person who who says you know they take a rule that's not actually a rule that God has given and then binds other people's conscience is just as wrong as the person who takes something good and becomes addicted to it or treats the creation as the ultimate gift right more more so than the creator so both of those are disordered. Views but generally only one is ever considered disordered correct yeah that's that's accurate. And I think I think I think the the beautiful thing about God is that that middle area I feel is pretty big. You know what I mean like there is a huge realm of enjoyment to be had in the middle there before you go off into crazy on either side like if someone is just like like if one of my like I have friends that don't smoke cigars but who don't believe it's a sin to smoke cigars they just choose not to smoke cigars and to that I say cool yeah maybe like honestly I agree this is not going to be hard to get out of things and you know my yes after care never met a wife that just like I love to kiss my husband after he has spent 45 minutes. Smoking a beautiful Maduro Rapsigar like I've never met a man that woman I just never have maybe I'm sure they're out there because you know everybody's got a thing but not mine right right right. Yeah no I think that I think that's fair it actually gives my wife headaches which is I run it because like pipe tobacco she loves to smell that that's because it smells all so yeah so I'm saying like I wish the pipes weren't so finicky because I they are a pipe tobacco itself but it's just I get flooded it is a lot of work I got frustrated and I don't have time to like learn it learn it and I'm just like whatever I'm like how these dudes packing pipes like in the trenches in World War One like they're doing it and here I am in a very controlled environment without war and wet and bombs and I can't get this darn cherry. I got really good at I got really good at it ironically Justin thinks he gets really good at a lot of things but BD. Ironically Justin does get really good a lot of things you jerk. Well you said got so I'm not going to know it's like it's like a skill you develop a skill and then like if you don't do use the skills not necessarily there anymore. Okay okay so you don't smoke pipe anymore. No I have a yeah I have a church warden but I don't know I do not use it it's in my garage with a bunch of various pipe paraphernalia that goes with the long stem pipe cleaners packing tool anyway but I wanted to bring it and here's how you pack a pipe no the three pinch method is very important. No if we were to bring this into a real realm that maybe everyone can can relate to like sea horses not like sea horses. The dichotomy of sea horses. By the way it's interesting because you were saying that like the middle is very big to glorify God I was thinking so for for the person who lives in the such as this the middle is there is no middle it's just massive on either side and when you're actually a person is legalism there the middle is intensely small right for them so it's like so ironic that you would say the middle is big because tea is tea shy they say there is no middle and other side says there is barely anything in the middle so it's like right right so only a person in the middle could actually say that yeah I was about to say the legalist says the middle is very tiny and I live there. That's correct that's correct if we were to bring it into a realm like if you were to understand like mapping cigars smoking onto something else so like I'm trying to think of something that might be more ubiquitous for everyone but I don't even know if this does it but like let's say you're at a your neighbor invites you over and you're going to go to your neighbor's house and they have you know beer there and maybe a football game on or something not beer I mean I just was throwing it out there. Does does this book helps someone to discern how that might even fit into their life like that particular situation that they're going to walk into that might be something very common that we could all connect with. Yeah I mean I touch on that a little bit it is mostly using tobacco as the analogies throughout the whole thing which is totally fine I did would it impact that view. Yes I think so the general principles throughout would would be for anything like that any any object that God has given us to enjoy but not take license with and so I think beer would absolutely fit in that I've got I've got a friend who is writing a book on that right now it's called well I won't say the name. I don't know if he's going to change it or not but I already have to be about my naming football earlier I don't want to have to find this and beat this one out of you. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm going to be out by initial joke please so that's like good good good. So he's writing one on on good beer and on liturgy and so his his whole thing is on like you know enjoying God's creation almost in like a sacramental way and I'm really excited to read that one just to see how like how much similarity there might be and differences as well but I think that that same. Principle can apply just into your point yes yes name and so like for example one of the examples we were Jesse is was a I got a little more taste of the anti fundamental movement that I was a part of when I was younger Jesse was came into maturity when we were at least in some areas where there was some understanding that scripture did not say. Certain haircuts were sin but when I was there that certain haircuts were sin and my mom thought I should have the simple haircuts which pros problems to you know just good issues she was very stylish and you know style was bad the the thing that was brought up for us was like you know you're just so ugly that you needed something unique. This is the truth God has taken your hair because he knows you don't need it he is let me keep mine because he knows it is a grace to me because I I desperately needed. So you know what you're you know I'm done you know what I mean so one of the things that was always given was the movies right like going to a theater to watch a movie right there's a there's a there's a concern then for they would have said that it's avoiding you want to avoid any appearance of evil yeah right and so if you go to a movie theater right that could be showing any number of films right given the number of films that are out or what season you go to right you you could be there could be like a really satan massacre stick car movie playing at that time and there could be like toy story seventeen playing at that at that theater and no one would know what movie you were going to go in and watch and so movie theaters became a place where you have to really be careful because your Christian testimony is on the line when you're going to a movie theater. Does that make sense in a biblical perspective? I've actually heard that same argument there was actually my one of one of the pastors at church I'm at now like that is the college that he went to wouldn't allow them to go to the movie theaters or the beach in Carolina. It's not it's it's closely related to so that it's in the panhandle of Florida it's in Florida but it's. I'm sorry that's not for yeah but same same you're on the same line I don't think we're there yeah the people are graduated with only went to one of those two colleges so yeah yeah yeah. But they they also want a lot to go to the beach because well of course people in bathing suits right and so which was interesting because the professor one of the major professors at that college who instituted this rule he you know the pastor that I have now went to beach and the professor was there. And like he had to like try to like walk the opposite way to professor did everything so like he would at the point I'm making those he had instituted these rules and then he was breaking them he wasn't breaking them he was he was monitoring them and enforcing that's what he was doing yeah. It's so but he had imposed these rules that you know I mean there can be prudence we you know you could say like you know if you're going to go to the beach there's you know things that you can do to be you know prudent and stuff like that but to say that you are not allowed to go to the beach. But where else you are sending now you've put some sort of extra biblical law on these people's conscience and if they want to go to the beach they now have to feel like they're sending and you have. You know place to burden on them that God didn't place and I would say the movies are the same thing there. Yeah the funny reality of what you the story you just highlighted it's the reality inside of any area that's going to make extra biblical rules because the reality is you are. Undoubtedly it's not even that the real reality is yes you you can't do any of these things they're wrong. You can do them as long as you don't get caught that's actually the reality of these these rules it's always the reality of these rules that are given right like it's totally fine that you listen to that evil sinful music in your car but don't let anyone else know that you did it live your private you know extra biblical rule breaking life. Keep it secret right it's like how homosexuality started it was just in the bedroom and we know how that went right always it's never never stays there never stays in the bedroom. And so next thing you know you fly off until the site's the center because you realize the absolute the gravity of trying to live a life that is so bound by. Ungodly rules that are not that are not biblical in nature that you you can't do it and so when you can't do it you give up and say well I'll just do whatever because it doesn't matter which is the other side of the coin that. Also is not biblical it flies into anti no mean is it flies into anti no mean is looking looking I knew me mean beauty fun me just like this. Right you know it's back to the dichotomy again yeah yeah right so so you've got you know both sides the sea and the horse. I'm going to be writing a book. I listen if you could write if you could write a book on cigars and call it a Christian book I'm sure you could do one of the sea horses. Well such a sliving and I want you to I want you to start a patreon and then I want one of the tears to be able to like throw random things that you have to incorporate in like a future work like I feel like that would be. Oh I would pay to do that. Okay I'll consider that just for you. Yes all right perfect. I'll shut it down right after you said me the money. I want to just continue to I want you to throw in something on the differences between Cayman and alligators. The wide law the wide snout of the alligator is like. All right that was that was not going to work. One of the seminal works when I was diving into this initially was the concept of Christian hedonism and John Piper actually had done some writing on that I believe he did it with Justin who was you writing with back then when he was doing his. I mean he had sex and the supremacy of Christ he had and then he had one that was something about something about pleasure and it was a different. He made so many spin-offs on and the supremacy of Christ like he was just breaking it in the money they were good they were help they were help he's like I'm going to write a couple big books and then I'm going to break them all down into like 20 little books for. But I just remember the concept of the Christian being one who should who should revel in the pleasures that God has given. Because God had given good gifts, got it given good things for the Christian to enjoy and and in that was the concept that we can find pleasure and pursue it in a way that glorifies God and that that was actually the only right way to find pleasure that there was no other there's no other way to find pleasure outside of that. But you know from having read that he got a ton of pushback he did on Christian hedonism he got a ton of pushback just even on the term alone you know just having the word hedonism. But I think that you know if you're wise you know even created things can remind us of divine truths and I don't want to I don't want to put to like I don't want to make it too sacramental and you know and say that things like that can be a sacrament or something but but it can turn our attention towards worship. So one of the things that I have found just in you know I've enjoyed cigars for about 20 years now and most of the time you know either if I'm supposed to cigar I'm either reading writing or sitting with some dudes talking about theology. And so it's one of the things that has actually just become part of my life that helps me get into a place where I can start to think effectively. And maybe maybe that's just me like but but I I know some people that say pop does the same thing for them. I actually have heard that yeah well that's the creative juices flowing all the field the Lord has has made good beat I just want to know that all the air of the field my friend. Perfect. I did not write a book on that. No. No, no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the tobacco is an herb of the field will be honest. It is. That's true. That's fair. The process of smoking a cigar is one that does inherently and this is the same with smoking a pipe it was one of the things that inherently did slow you down. Do you think that there's a tie into like the pleasures that we have inherently slowing us down or is that just happen to be one of the de facto things that happens in cigar smoking. Yeah, I mean I think there's a there's a ritual to it right. So you know you cut the cigar you you toast the foot you're you're you're doing the whole process and so like it becomes almost this slow. Almost this like liturgy before you actually even get into the process of having the conversations or of reading or writing so like one of the things that I did at the end of each chapter is talk about the cigar that I was smoking while I was writing that chapter. So it was just kind of like a little you know play on on the chapter specifically so I would try to find a cigar that like match that so if I was writing like I did a chapter on this is interesting. I did a chapter on like your eschatological viewpoint based on the type of cigar you smoke. So that was kind of fun but you know it was talking about how like a Maduro pairs well with like a post millennial hope you know and so like that and that's where I was saying like it was sort of you know tongue and cheek in certain parts. But I was trying to be serious enough and like you know I talked about like the Connecticut cigar you know is is sort of mild nobody nobody can really be offended by it. And so I kind of paired it with like the confessional precision of the clean credalist is what I called them and so you know I talked about how like they're they're very naturally studious they're very comfortable in the seminary library. But maybe they need to actually get their hands dirty too and get out there and and and meet people where people are at because they're not in the library and so I was trying to mean some people in the library just the librarians are in the library. You can learn a lot about seahorses of the library. No talking that's what I tell you in the library. So but it was fun it was fun I do think to your point there is there is some ritual there is some liturgy that happens it forces you to slow down and it's enjoyable. Yeah I was immediately trying to think of things that I enjoy I think almost everything we enjoy does have a little bit of a process to it or at least it had some planning even to getting to a thing that we enjoyed or or having that thing that we enjoy that brings pleasure. And and what goes into the things that we enjoy right like even the processes of making some of these things takes a lot of time and a lot of craft to and to enjoy them well to to have something that is well I've always said that alcohol is very easy. Basically if you want to have alcohol that glorifies God it should be alcohol that costs you something so that you can't have a lot you can't necessarily have a lot of it you know if you if you think a five dollar handle of something is what you what's going to glorify God I don't know unless it's going into a very large batch of something you're making for everyone to share. But but I've always said that that it's pleasure should be something that you invest in I think that's really where the ritual comes in it's you're investing in that time right that you're you're putting into the cigar you're you're making it something with the time you invest and so whether it's with the the time or or the energy or the the money that you're using to enjoy something it should it should be something that says I am I'm invested in this that I think that I enjoy in a way for the glory of God. Which is a little bit of entertainment to write like I know that you know my wife has said to me before she was like you're literally lighting up money. You know essentially like you have to pay for it right and then you're lighting it's smoking it and the part of it is you know there is an entertainment factor to it as well right and so. You know it's it's enjoyable you're creating you're creating this environment where you know you guys know this like men men often don't want to sit around in a circle and talk about their feelings but you put a cigar in their hand and they're fine to sit around a circle a circle and talk about things. You know and a lot of times where you know we work shoulder to shoulder and so you have to have something to do in order to facilitate that time and so we've grown like I know at our church we've grown our our men's group substantially ever since we started having you know it's probably about once every two months now. A cigar like we got people that we would never get at just a Bible study and then we con them into doing a Bible study while while smoking a cigar you know so what are you going to say about eschatology. Hey and what are you. Yeah. Oh you got a Connecticut rapper there I can tell something about you are a scatologist. Uh huh. Uh huh. Blondies are amazing. Honestly I was going to say I think a Connecticut rapper is is actually just for somebody who's eschat agnostic because I like a nice simple cigar sometimes you know just what's a black and mild and mild. I did not write on black and mild. Yeah. If it has it also if it has a plastic tip it's not a cigar. Oh I like the wood one. You got to get the wood. What about those backwoods you guys ever had those little backwoods in a paper bag. I've never been desperate enough. You're tearing open a paper bag. Anything that anything whose logo is a white owl avoid market avoid I mean really. I'm sorry. Well I think black and mild are kind of like the black church culture you know. It's one of the few things I've talked to me more about that. Just about on that. Oh Jesse did you just stop that week. Please let me help you. I was just going to say black and wilds. I love the dead silence. No one was helping me out. No one was laughing. They're like oh crap. Everyone was thinking it. Nobody's saying it. No I mean like if you'll write that chapter I'll add it to the book. This is one I would. I would love to write the black and mild chapter. It's one of the few things like my wife's like oh this is going to sound totally. This is not how I mean to sound it but I'm just going to say it because I don't care. I'm not paid. Cancel me a dare you. You can try. My wife grew up in what not just her what we would what everyone calls the hood. It was just this where she grew up. And black and milds were just like you pick with a scent on the on the wind. And it's one of the few things that I could ever smoke that my wife's like oh is that a black and mild. Oh that sounds nice. That's like a wonderful earthy candle. It's really good. It takes me back to my childhood. It takes me back to my childhood. There's definitely a the silence. I can just hear the man. I'll just say it. If you were to talk about ritual you've never had to champ a black and mild. You do not know about ritual my friend. It is a process bro a process. Anyway that's anything there. And you can all you know know that I need forgiveness. So I guess just. I guess just to bring it back. So you mentioned slowing down and how intentionally slow that you that that enjoying us are really is. I have had to there have been times where I have because of my own mental inadequacies. Forget that I was supposed to do something or be somewhere after I have lit a cigar. And the absolute feeling of turmoil anguish that that brings an anxiety because I either have to pound through this cigar. Or it's or it's just wasted. It's not the same people are like oh you could try to you know save and re like no you really can't it's not the same. Yeah. Yeah. To be clear a pipe you can do that all day. You can't rely on a solid. Pop it in your pocket and put it out later my friend. That's right. That's right. Oh, dusty pocket. Do you remember black Betty that tobacco I got from a green tree tobacco company that was some great pipe tobacco. I had no idea what you're talking about. I'm like who is black and white. Betty and what did you call for it was called. It's very reason all red. We had one of the rings pipe tobacco has weird names. I don't know what we're talking about here. Get some old Todd there. We all know that. All told me. All right. So so so Jesse what you were saying though is ultimately like it stresses you out to even have to smoke one because you have too many things to do. So I'm having to do. I mean, no, I'm saying that in the moments that I've been forced to quickly do that it is not enjoyable for me. Like you know what I mean? Yeah. The absence of that time invested ruins the experience of enjoying a cigar because it really is enjoying a cigar. If you don't have the time to do that then I have not made the mistake in a long time of letting a cigar that I couldn't finish. I just haven't lit a cigar in a long time because of busyness. But it's it's it's getting to be fall again. Oh, we love fall for that. Perfect time to pick one back up. Yeah. I've got to keep it or full of them. The the thing that I keep coming back to as we're talking about cigars which is probably just like because we're talking about the fact that God gives us pleasure for his glory. Yeah. So it's to glorify him. And I just keep coming back to this in my mind like. As much as we're talking about cigars, I think as husband it's always just a good reminder like one of the things I really enjoy a lot is sex with my wife. And we should really slow down and treat that whole process the same way we would treat setting our fantasy football items or preparing to smoke cigar or like all those things we enjoy and we do not necessarily do as good a job of viewing our wives and realizing that thing that we do enjoy. Like that's a part of that as well. And I just that just triggered because I was thinking of John Piper in the book and then there was a sex and supremacy of Christ and then Christianism and kind of all came together and I'm like. Yeah, no, like everything that we got is given us good for pleasure is something that we really need to invest the time in to enjoy properly. It's a it's a great concept of based on cigars smoking. I think it was a great idea to write a book like this and I'm the more we talk about the more I'm like, all right, I do I do really want to read this book. I did kind of want to hear. Well, one of the things that you're touching on that you didn't necessarily say, but. I think you're getting at is that like God is not a miser, right? He has given us so many great things he has given us beauty aroma pleasure delight. And so you know, being grateful for those things is important. And I think that the cigar has a lot of those elements in it. But to your point, there are other things as well. Absolutely. The only problem I had right now is I the more I'm older I get the more and the worse going to the beach gets honestly, I have really is to agree with your with your. Former professors. Yeah, just don't go. I just remember going to the beach like I've only made it. I've only made it to the beach one although we're going to Saturday. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be dead. I only made it to the beach once this summer, which is sad. But we went really late in the day. And so we were really focused on like going in. We'll get in the water a little bit. Then we'll walk on the boardwalk and we'll get some pizza or dinner. And I remember like the boardwalk was almost worse than the beach. I'm like, what I would just feel like I feel like an old man. I'm like, get off my long kind of situation. I'm like, put some gloves on. What's wrong with you people? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm so bad. I'm like, you know what? I kind of disagree with this professor. Just don't go to the beach. It's just so bad that we have. We do not qualify a bathing suit anymore. It does not have a qualification. People are trash. It's not a thing. A bathing suit is a joke. It's an absolute joke. Like people aren't even pretty and they think they can wear that. It's like disgusting actually. Yeah, that's why I told you the other day you've got to take that two-piece off. Jesse is not okay. I'm a one piece man myself for you. Things were falling out. It was not okay. That's real trick is to make sure they don't know where you never mind. The joke got bad, but I did it and you made it. First, it's great. All right. I took it one step too far. This is how you spike book sales beauty. This is how you spike book sales, all right? What should everybody do? What everybody do? To the moon. When you're writing a book like this, that was kind of the thing. Like, why? Why would you write a book like this? What's the like, all right, you wanted to have a maybe you wanted to have a fun take on the concept. But what really spurred it on? Like the real avenue to doing it? Was it like seeing people that were having to hide it? Is that the real draw? Yeah, I mean part of it. I think that we can't confine theology to the church, right? It should govern all the things that we do, how we eat, how we drink, how we rest, how we celebrate, how we enjoy the physical world. And so, yes, to your point, you know, we talked before even started recording about how. You know, I have the Lord has placed me in a position to where in my life, I have known many pastors and leaders of institutions who have had to hide the fact that they were a cigar smoker and stuff like that because they felt like it would be a bad. Look, let's just say a bad look to be a cigar smoker. And so they knew that it was an extra biblical rule that people had put on on on society, but they didn't want to talk about it, right? And so these same people would often and I'm in the South, right, in the Bible belt and stuff like that. And so these same people would go to the liquor store, but they'd go two or three towns over. So that way nobody knew who they were and they'd get in and out really quick. I'm too lazy to out right there. That's too far. That's too much work. I'm out. I can't deal. I can't deal with that. Yeah. Next, Justin's new book, Too Lazy for Legalism. That's great. That's great. License. Too lazy for legalism. That is great. Sorry. But yeah, I just I just think there's there's there's a case to be made. And if you know, five or 10 people read this book and feel like they learn something and and we're questioning what they thought before because of the argument that I'm making the book, then I'm happy with it. I think that I think that the ordinary things in life have to be brought under the Lordship of Christ. And this is one of those things in my life. And I think that there's plenty of other people. You know, I'm on some some different groups online where there's a bunch of Christian men who smoke cigars and things like that. And so I know that there's a market out there for it. But you know, maybe not the biggest market in the world, but still something I wanted to write and hopefully it's enjoyable to somebody. I think I think the mundaneness of of the reality that all of life is is theological is is a great reason to write anything. So I think you've nailed you absolutely nailed that on the head. And I really think like it's a simple neither thing like we should never do anything just because it's it brings pleasure. We should do things because they glorify God. And when the fear of man is actually affecting you doing a thing, you can't also glorify God in it. And that's really what we're talking about when when these conversations are happening, right. If you have to drive two towns over to the liquor store because you could certain someone's going to see you. But you're just are you are you afraid of the liquor are you afraid of the driving are you afraid of what people will think of you because then you're just fearing what man thinks of you. And then you're not going to find God when you're not when you're doing or doing something specifically because of the fear of man. You're not glorifying God in it. It's just the reality. It is. Dude, that phrase is so triggering for me. The fear of the fear of man. It takes me. Isn't it so strange and I don't know if this is really it's like for me, maybe I am moat a lot. So maybe this I don't know whatever that that takes me right into one of our pastor's offices in a conversation that I was having. Honestly, this this actually kind of ties into Christian Liberty. It absolutely does. So when I was one once I graduated high school, I think in my freshman year of college, I must have been like 18 or 19. I started a movie Bible study. Now, obviously it's like that was a bad name. We watched a movie and then we talked about the characters, the themes, the plots and picked out the biblical ties because I was very passionate about and still am very passionate about people consuming media and seeing Christ in that media if it can be seen. I started that and I got called into the principal's office. I met not only I met with the senior pastor and I had to have a meeting with the youth pastor as well. It was just the craziest thing and my parents were there and it was awkward because my dad is also an elder at the church. So it's like, you know, you could kind of feel that awkwardness. They're like, they're like guys, he's just he's right. Like, obviously, and they're just like, no, but I remember I started the words I said, I said, pastor isn't isn't this kind of just like like the fear of man? Like, should we be doing that? And he got so he got angry truly. He threw up his hands and he slammed his desk and he said, he said, I am so sick and tired of being told that I fear man by the groovers is what he said because I'm pretty sure Jelston you had had you had had conversations with him about similar issues before because it's easier to just sweep something under the rug and expect that a meeting like that would breed compliance. It's easier to do that and sweep it under the rug than actually deal with the issue of Christian Liberty and what's actually right or wrong. And he said, I'm so sick and tired of you groovers telling me about the fear of man. And I'm like, I don't know, I feel like maybe that's the Holy Spirit, but whatever. Right, right. But like, isn't it so crazy how's like some certain things I know like smells and sounds and sites and like that phrase always puts me right there. Like I remember where I was sitting. I remember my parents, I remember him. Remember his reaction. That's just so funny. Yeah, the dirty, the this was really just how's having you on to come clean because both of us have both been brought under. It's not just discipline because it's not biblical at all. Whatever happened to what happened was not. Maybe they thought it was, but it was not. So me and me and my wife, we've made significant decisions that our homes are ministries and that our home are literal. The building of our home will be used by others, which enters into its own challenges. I'm both both me and my wife have housed several homeless people in the course of our from the time we were married till now. And Jesse is also a house homeless people like that. That's just how we've always lived. And so I mean, every youth group Bible study youth group summer studies, college and career small groups. We've always had, you know, up to 30 humans in our home at any given night of the week. Pretty continually. And because of that, because we were always the house where young adults and the youth group and parents knew they could let their kids weave. And we also are real humans. We had alcohol in our fridge and we had found out one time that one of the youth had at the youth group had not without snowing at all. Obviously had had something to drink at our house. And that was a huge issue. You know, the youth ministry that we had been involved with for at that point, at least 10 years. They told us we had to step down from serving for a time. They they we did I actually began my dad's and elder at the church. At the church at the time we had to do a study. We did a study on Christian Liberty and the weaker brother that's about I was just looking for it to see if I could find it my Google drive. This is going to sound super old. It's actually on my. Oh, what is that? Oh, no, I'm going to remember the website. What was the thing that used to be storage online? Jesse that we used way back in the day. Dropbox or something. Yes. It's actually in my drop box. I had to sign it to find it. But, but that was a whole thing. That was a real thing for us at the time. And I remember thinking like, wait. You're upset with me because someone sent it against me. Right. And I just remember that one of the things that my brother-in-law, who's a pastor out in Minnesota, he said, did you ever mention to them that you have a bed in your house? Oh, Lord. And your wife, you know, sleep in that bed. And what if one of the teenagers sees your bed in your bedroom? And that, you know, gives them license to go have sex. Did you ever mention that reality to them? Like, did you ever think about that? No, but that would have been a good one to bring up. So this particular idea of bringing things into the glory of God really kind of hits home with us because we struggled to help others kind of understand that in our lives. What are we thinking that your kids aren't watching movies? Is that what we're thinking? Like, that's what that's the game we're playing here? Wait, wait, you think that these kids parents don't also have alcohol? You think that the problem is I have alcohol at the house? Not that this teenager decided it was okay for him to take someone else's alcohol without them knowing. What are we talking about here? Where's the problem? I don't understand what you're saying. Also, potentially, their parents might have alcohol in the house too. It's 100 million with it too. Yeah, it's 100% accurate that their parents had alcohol at their house. Absolutely. This is also one of the kids. Probably smoked black and mild too. Let's be honest. This is one of the kids that was on the outside of the group. Like that would hang out with us because we were not the same. Like, that's who this kid was. This wasn't a church kid. This wasn't a kid that was going to show up all clean, shaved, but in your suit. For ex-adjeeting, you know, Philemon. It was just the kid that was like, what are you coming out with? You guys are real and like, life is hard. That's what this kid was there for. It was wild time. But bringing things out of the group, God, that was really when like, I realized I had a framework for it. That was laid down over the years. But then coming into that really made me just dig into the word. Not just for proof text, but for what does it, what does it really mean? And that's really when I started to get acquainted with this particular concept that's in your book, this idea that these things exist for God's glory. And if it's a thing that I enjoy that doesn't glorify God, it's just out. It doesn't actually bring me pleasure. That's not real pleasure. That's not true enjoyment. That is a false enjoyment from Satan. That is taking the fruit that leads to death is what it is. And so maybe if I had your book like 30 years ago, they'd been helpful, I guess. They wouldn't have read it. They wouldn't have read it. It has a cigar on it. No, gosh, they wouldn't have read it. No. But I mean for me. It would have been a whole person. Oh, oh, oh. That's great. So thanks for coming to our real confessions of church ministry. People. I think here's the interesting thing though. Probably everybody that's listening has either had a similar story or has heard a similar story. Because it's so prevalent. It's trying to keep. And this this goes really. I don't I don't mean this to be a tangent, but like it's really hitting me hard. We're in Ephesians right now. And we're in chapter four where we just went through, you know, seven to 11. We're talking about Christ giving gifts. And then. And then, you know, he gives apostles prophets evangelist pastors teachers. And we're kind of going through that. And it's really making me realize how just. I mean, like I know it. I've known it forever. We've messed up what a church is to be like the very institution that God's given. We've set it up to be something so other. The corporate model, the keeping this clean view of what the church is and the separation of. Of pastors and and their their actual congregations. And it's just a disgusting. Blight. It's why we have such weak Christians. Overall, just generally speaking in my book. Yeah, and I hate, you know, hate hates a strong word, but I mean, I think I do hate it that the idea that worship is confined to Sunday morning. 100% right. I mean, worship. If you're doing it rightly spills into your rest into your marriage and your friendships, eating and drinking, you know, conversations. So like it shouldn't be confined to that building. And what I think we do, you know, we have this personal piety is important, right? Obviously. But I think that there's such a focus on that, you know, and on, you know, your personal Bible study and things like that that we forget to show how really all of those truths translates to all of your life. Not just that, that me, my Bible and Jesus and, you know, Sunday morning songs. That's what got us into this mess. It really is. Like it genuinely is because when I am, when I'm trapped into, I worship God in my quiet time. Most of your time in your life is actually the loud time. Like that's the majority of your life. If you're worshiping God in your quiet time, there I say you got to be careful. You're not worshiping him in the loud time, which is all the rest of life. And we, it's funny. It's funny how much you can tie to history because that's really how our nation was kind of founded in this individualist model. It really was. Like that's how our nation kind of became a thing. Most churches were congregationalist churches at the founding of our nation. They were the congregation voted. They voted on the pastor. They were doing what they would do next. And it was up to the sheep. Ironically, you'll find that exactly zero places in the Bible. There's zero, zero places where that is actually a biblical model of a church. And yet because of the individualism, right, that my, my, what I say matters, right, and all I say it matters. We've made that into our spiritual walk as if you were ever supposed to meant to be an individual by your self-Christian. And part of the gift that Ephesians clearly calls the gift of the church, the gift of the saints is a part of the inheritance crisis given. It's all of them together coming together being together. That is the inheritance. And it's so, it's so funny to me. But anyway, we've gotten far away from the glory of God in cigar smoking. That's for sure. I hope we haven't gotten far away from the glory of God in cigar smoking. Specifically the book. Sorry. To the glory of God, theology of cigar smoking. Well, let me, let me, let me say one last thing. You know, the point of the book is not to glorify cigars or cigar smoking. The point is to glorify God in the way that the cigar is received and that the way that we enjoy it, the way that we govern our lives. And the way that we are with the people that were around. So I think that's maybe the thing that I would leave us with is that like I'm not trying to glorify cigars in and of themselves. I want to show us that we can glorify God in the things that we do when we submit them to him. Amen. Because one of the most spiritual things, like things I've ever taken part in was the most delicious police piece of filamonyan cooked absolutely perfectly. And I just remember thinking like how awesome is God? This is the most amazing thing I've ever considered my life. This is crazy. How good this is. And God made this and then we cooked it. It's just perfect. It's funny. Remember when we ate at your mom's. Oh, wow, that was really. Oh, yeah. Remember, we almost got, we almost got robbed. I remember that. That was fun. That food. Do you remember that? Whenever I talk about, no, I don't remember. You don't remember the robbery. Of course, of course, you don't remember the robbery, the potential like the people like we're staking us out when we're outside eating the food. You remember this. That's cool. Were they smoking black and white? Yeah, they were not. They kept parading us. That's how you, that's how you didn't get robbed because you smelled it. I was just eating my chicken and wallets and to the glory of God. Yeah, that was a great. That was a good time. That was a good time. But this is awesome. PD, can I make a suggestion? Oh, yeah, do. I'm staring right now at the, at the web page for the book. And it is on sale right now and everyone should buy it right now because it is on sale for $16.99. But I feel like you should have recalculated the percentage so that it would have been $16.89. Ooh. You know, it's only $0.10, man. It's only $0.10, man. Yeah, you're right. I'll go back and fix that. One of my favorite cigars to like the $16.89 cigars throughout the book. I had a couple different one of those while I was, we may know somebody, maybe I'll message somebody to get it promoted if it's $16.89 if the price changes. Like that might, that might be an easy cross promotional. It is. I just put you in a Facebook chat with chance summers. I said, you go. Yeah, yeah. Of $16. Yeah. So we'll just inform of that price is going to be changed and he needs to cross promote. What were we talking about this $16.89? And our church is confessional with the $16.89. I knew it. I knew it. So if you're listening, it is on sale right now for $16.99. It could be $16.89 by the time you go onto the webpage. And if it's not, honestly, don't buy the book because that is beating out, receiving a good word. That's it. It's right there. It represents a lack of repentance. Yeah. Hard heart. That's a hard part. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The old forgepress.com, the old forgepress.com, it'll be in the show notes for sure to the glory of God, theology of cigar smoking 1689. That's right. 16. It is. It's 1689. Perfect. Look at this. This is how awesome. You know what? We get things done here at the government. The internet is interesting. It's already. It's already been read. It is updated right now. You can get the 1689 edition. By the way, that's a signed copy. You know, we were clarified that, right? It's not a signed copy. It's a signed copy. Yes, it's a signed copy. A BDFLM will sign this. If you buy physical from the old forgepress, you get, you get, you're on the ground floor. If you just watch out, you open that package up too fast to stick or might come to fly out of the energy. You never know what you're going to get with the old forgepress. You never got to pay attention. Got to pay attention. But this was awesome. Thank you so much for coming on BD. We appreciate it for that. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And as we like to say, especially when we're in the same room, oh, we're going to talk about this. Oh gosh. Go ahead. Go ahead. It's not about us, guys. It's not about us. It's just, it's one of those, it's like, it's like at what point in the service do you put announcements? It's like, you know what I mean? It's like one of those great places. There's no great place. Yeah. But I do agree that having had the introduction with BD would probably have been more appropriate to have continued with. But we will be attending the America Reforged Conference in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. It is October 15th through 17th. And it is called America Reforged Rebuilding on God's Law. If you listen to our interview with Luke Saint, you are familiar with the type of content that we'll be getting. Speakers include Matthew Trujello, which some people might be familiar with, as well as Chris Hume, Luke Saint. We've mentioned both of their books on our podcast in the past. And some of these topics, they got a session schedule updated. Some of these are really cool looking. God hates your worship by Chris Hume. There's one on healthcare in America, which sounds pretty interesting. And then on Friday, there is a debate with William Wolf versus Luke Saint on immigration, which would be terribly interesting. That would be a very fun one to go to. And may or may not, there's a panel discussion that may or may not have two extra seats on the stage that may include two of your favorite podcastes. We don't know why we invite. Why they said TBD. It's a very possible way. Why they invited us? I don't know. So I'm just saying, if that does happen, it will only be for two of your favorite podcastes to start the pot. That's all it will be for. Yes. We have to skim the game. So we will definitely start the pot. Again, put in the comments what you think of the BD stands for in BD. I just imagine if you do go to the conference, which actually is going to be a really edifying thing for you to have to, you should be challenged on what you view, what you view righteousness in laws and in the nation. But regardless of that, you'll be able to get some really cool merch from Carvefeede possibly cheaper than you've ever seen it. So I'm just saying, might want to get to that conference. Yes. Good job, Jesse. Thank you. Thank you, BD, for allowing me to do that. I appreciate that. Once again, you'll forgepress.com, 6889 edition, sign copy of to the glory of God, theology of Scorsmokin. And with that, we like to tell you as we do at the end of every episode, dear Christian, we hope you this day would seize the faith.